Interview with Jack Din, 7/10/93
conducted by Grant Din, Jana Din, and Rosalyn Tonai (unedited)
my pop's, which is a name completely, you know, he came on somebody else's papers, ... a person who never got married over here.
The papers that Pop came under - there was a certificate of immigration or something.  But he came under the name Ow Luen - it was strictly a fictitious name or somebody else's papers.  And he came over as a single person, and really, supposedly there's no tie-in between us and him.  And his brother came under the papers of Doon Haw.  And he somehow managed to bring Dad's wife, our mother over as his wife, to bring her over for our pop.  So that's where Din came, D-o-o-n H-a-w.  Pop started to use that name because here Mom was living with him as his wife, although that was supposed to be his brother's wife.  So he in effect started to use his brother's name.
And then somehow the name got changed to Din, probably because as he started to write it, his English wasn't very good, or else somebody asked him on it"  In fact, that's how my name, my last name ended up as How, H-o-w, because that's the way they possibly interpreted him saying his name, and then they thought that was his last name because the Chinese always put the last name first, and he says my name is Doon Haw, and they ended up putting Din How.  The birth certificate or something like that, "o.k. what's your name, and what's your child's name? And so I ended up being Jack Din How.  And so I had to get that officially changed when I was in the service, you know when I went to OCS.  That's a mess.
Jana: What did you go by when you were in school then?
Well, all we knew of course was Din.  So I don't know at what point it got changed to Din, D-i-n, but pretty soon Pop started to write it Haw Din.  But he always seemed to sign D-i-n H-a-w, you know with his family name first.
Grant: Because on the gravestone it says H-e-w.  
Hew. Somewhere it got changed to Hew.  Maybe he started to use Hew, but actually the paper itself is Doon Haw.  He probably started using the “e” as an “a” so he started using Hew Din.
Grant: I thought Doon Haw was his brother.
Doon Haw was his brother's paper name.
Jana: And that was fake too?
Yeah, that was fake too.
Grant: So he took his brother's papers?
Well, he just took his name.  He took that name because here he's got Mom as his wife.  So he started...and then his brother died as James.  That's right, because that's supposed to be Robert Din, so when he passed away too, his father was really Dad’s brother.
Grant: Howard's father?
See, Robert's supposed to be our brother.
Laughter
Because actually the family was all supposed to be my uncle's family but my pop was using his name.
Jana: When did he die, Howard's father?
Oh, after all of us were born, because we went down to his funeral.
Jana: Well, if he died and your dad was using his name, then technically...
Grant: ...what name was he using? 
I don't know what he used when he was deceased, I don't know what name they put him under.  When you die, you don't have to show anything as far as I know.  
Rosalyn:  Is he buried near here?
Fresno.
Rosalyn: So his gravesite says...
I have no idea what it is.  All I remember is that Pop loaded us all in the car one day - it's the only day of school that I missed out of twelve years - and we went down to Fresno.  We just knew that it was an uncle who had passed away.
Jana: But that was your dad's brother?
Yeah.
Grant (pointing to family tree): Do you know which of these he would be?
Yeah...it would have to be...Bow John probably was his Chinese name.  But he used...we called him Uncle James over here.  And this Bow Cheuk, which is Sing's father - and his brother Chong  we actually called Uncle Warren.  See my dad financed him to come over here to go to college, for five or six years in the Midwest.  I still have that yearbook of his.  O.K.
Grant: So Gong Bow Gwun
Is your grandfather, my father.
Grant: Also known as Hew Din?
Hew Din.  
Grant: Do you know when he came to this country?
1912, was it?  He was sixteen, I think, and he was supposed to have been born in 1896.
Grant: And he...um, his wife who came over with Doon Haw...
His brother...
Grant: were they married when he left China?
He must have been. He must have been married you know?
Jana: Well Ruby was born over there, wasn't she?
No, she was born in San Francisco.
Jana: Everyone was born here?
Ruby was born in San Francisco.  Your father George and Frank were born in Merced, and all the rest of us were born in Woodland.
G: So what's the order after George and Frank?
It's Ruby first, and then George, Frank, James, Lucy, me, John, and Hank, Henry.
G: And all the rest were born in Woodland?
Yes, is that eight of us? 
Yeah.
Jana: Imagine having eight kids?
No.  (all laugh).
So anyway, yeah, all the rest of us were born in Woodland.  But...let's see, and then like I said, the two brothers, the one who came over first, James, came under the name Doon Haw, which my dad kind of unofficially adopted since he took his wife as his wife.  I would guess that you know even though sixteen seems kind of young, that he was married before he left China because being the oldest son and all that, I'm sure that they married him off before, so that he'd have a wife.  And she didn't come over, my mom didn't come over until she was about 27, as I recall.
All: Wow.
It took a long time to get her over.
G: Now, do you know the story of how she came over?
All I know is that she supposedly came over as Uncle James's wife.
G: So they were born the same year, Grandfather and Grandmother?
Were they?  You're talking about your great grandfather and grandmother?
G: No, just [my] grandmother and grandfather.
My dad? Oh yeah, 1896.
Rosalyn:  I have a question.  How do you write your name in Chinese?
Which one?
R: Your real name in Chinese?
My family name?
R: Yeah
G: It's probably over here.  There's Bow Gwun...your dad was wondering?
R: He couldn't quite read it.
It's what you call Din...Gong - that's the water radical or what you call it...I don't know what it really means.  Ask John, he's our teacher.  He came in one time.  But that's the family name, that's what you write in Chinese.
G: I understand that, I guess...our great grandfather worked on the railroad?
My grandfather, no my great grandfather.
G: Your great grandfather?
Not my grandfather - he never got out of China. He was never out of China.  So he'd be this one here.
Jana: Your great grandfather worked on the railroad?
Well, that's what we understand how, that's where some of the original papers are from.  Of course, Pop came under as a naturalized citizen but under that name I have no idea how that occurred.  The papers he had, he was supposed to be a naturalized citizen.  Then you should have seen me when I was trying to get security clearance to go to OCS, the service.
Jana: What's OCS?
Officer Candidate School.  They do a background check on you and...
R: Were you in the Military Intelligence Service?
No, I would have never passed that (all laugh). I had to put all kinds of stuff down about my dad, because they had to check the name and see if there was anything bad in your background.  And they came back and said "we cannot verify any of this" [laughter] it must have gone on for about six months and that held me up for a long time from going to OCS.  After awhile I just said, well, my dad lost all of his papers and I don't know anything more about him.  
Jana: So they let you in?
Well, I guess they finally did.  I kept saying they'll never pass me to go, but they did.  Anyway. But I think, that's my understanding, but I'm not sure.
Jana: So that would be our great great grandfather?
Yeah.  My great grandfather, as I understand, came over to work on the railroad.
Jana: It would be interesting to find his papers.
But I don't know who would verify that.  I'll have to ask Tommy. Because that would be his grandfather.  Tommy would know.  He should know.
G: Tommy is one of the....
Tommy [the brother of] one of the sisters.
G: Where is he? Oh, over with Lucille.  O.K. There's Tommy.
Tom, he might not be there 'cause he's up in his seventies.  He's not too healthy to travel.  But maybe Lucille or one of the sisters might know.
J: But that's their grandfather....
That would be their grandfather.  They would know.
J: That would be interesting to find out.  But then he must have gone back to China then, or he stayed here?
No, he never stayed here.  All his kids were born over there [China].  See, somewhere, somebody had to start something, because they had a certain amount of wealth, that is they had land and stuff.  You know, that's the only way you could get it, is by somebody that probably came over here and accumulated...
J: In other words, your father's generation was not the first generation to start anything over here.  They had relatives?
Well, somebody had to give them something to even buy to come over, to get the papers.  Most of them were paid papers even after they came over here and worked awhile.
J: I wonder what year he would have been over here if he really did come, like in the middle 1800s?
Had to be somewhere in the 1800s. Must have been in the 1800s.
R: So he's not buried here?
G: He went back to China.
J: But did you go figure out where these people were buried in the village?
Well, I know where grandfather was.  They moved him.  I mean, we went...I know where his father was because we went up there one time.  I don't know who all they were, but they're all his ancestors...
G: His father...
My grandfather.  When I was there.  But, they moved those graves since then because when I was back there two years ago, Sing's brother took me up to this new cemetery that had just (opened) in the last four-five years.  I have some pictures and can bring them out next time. I have some tapes that shows the cemetery. There's kind of a big...not like a headstone but like a...not like a crypt, but there's a whole area for...
R: Family?
Family. Well, mainly the men, the males. I don't know where the females are...they're married off, or somewhere else.  They have my grandfather there, and they must have probably moved the great grandfather too, I would think.  I don't know why they moved him or what.  They had all this new area.  So, like I say, probably Lucille or that family are the ones who could tell you.  They're really the only ones that really...Tommy, of course would be the best because he lived over...
R: Where does he live?
Well, he's down in Grover City.  We went down there last year when our aunt's daughter from Panama, and her daughter came [to visit].  Too bad you didn't meet....
G: From Panama?
Yes.
All: Ohhh.
J: Now, who were they?  
They're Pop's sister’s girl and her child.
J: They're Pop's sister’s daughter.
Well, first off, the ones who came, are the mother and a daughter.  The mother is the daughter of Pop's sister.
J: Oh.
The one who was in Hong Kong.  I don't know if she was natural born or adopted.  Somebody told me she was adopted.
J: They spoke fluent Spanish though.
R: Like Fongs, Debbie Fong.
Oh man, well being in Panama.  It's so funny. They talked Spanish better than anything.  The mother really picked up, considering the fact that she went over there in her late teens or early twenties after she got married.  She married a Panama Chinese guy who came back to China to find a wife.
G: (looking at chart).  Here we have "adopted child" on here, do you think that...
Yeah, that's her.  That's Yuen Yu? ? I think that's whatchucall....
J: That's the one from Panama?
This is Pop's sister and she married somebody from Panama too?  No...whatever, she married....
J: I wonder how they ended up going to Panama?
G: Same as up here?
A lot of Chinese....
J: But I mean what's in Panama...?
I mean it's an area that they could go to without much trouble getting in the country, see, just like Canada used to be.  First off, United States was hardest to get into, then Canada was next, because it was easier.  But, the other South American countries...I don't know how much went to Mexico, but Panama apparently was the place that took them a lot, and also had some ties with the United States, see, so I guess that was an avenue eventually they would get up to the United States through there.  But there's a lot of Chinese from there.  And a lot of them, because there's no Chinese girls over there, they went back to China to get married.  So there was a lot of Chinese...
G: We have a lot of friends...Debbie live in Panama?
R: Umm hmmm.
G: Her father's name is Rogelio Fong [all laugh].  They probably think it's strange [that we have English names].
R: She speaks Spanish, Chinese....
The daughter, her, you can add, is named Gloria.  At least that's her English name.  It's so funny that ?? in Spanish, and then she's learning English, too, so that helped.
G: That's Gloria and her mother?  
Yes.
G: And they both live in Panama now?
Yeah.
J: You've never met them before they came to stay with you?
No!  I just saw a picture of her when she just got married in Hong Kong to her husband.  You know, a real nice looking girl. Now her daughter is her age when I saw the picture of her.  So that's one sister of Pop's there - your grand aunt, great aunt.  Grand aunt.  Do you have a grand aunt?
G: Great aunt.  They don't call it grand aunt, for some reason.
J: So there were seven siblings in your....
Three brothers, my dad's two brothers and four sisters.  Because I remember this one, two, three, o.k. I remember.  She was the one from Vietnam, and they called it, what did they call it at that time?  Indochina.  She for some reason, a lot of the Chinese migrated all over the Asian countryside, wherever they, whatchucallit.  She and her husband came back from Indochina, when Pop went back, but that was his first trip back. 
Then Pop was the oldest son, oldest of the family...but I think one of his sisters was older.  This one, Chew.  Oh I guess they put it in order of birth. Because she was there when I was there, but she was little I think at the time.
G: So you saw her in China?
Yeah.  Because I knew she was probably related to Pop but I was never sure and then I figured out, well, his sister, and her husband was dead so that was why she was around the house all the time.  So Pop and... Oh, this other sister's older too, huh?  That's the one...
G: Whose daughter you met?
Yeah, the one....all these sisters were all back there in the village when I was there.
G: Oh really?
Oh yeah.  Like I say, she was just expected to come back when my dad came back from Indochina, so they traveled up from Indochina.  Well, of course the two brothers were dead, but all the reast of the sisters came.  This Bin, she was the lowest economic status because she had nine children...she married very low in economic status because she had a club foot, so she married a workman, somebody who had no property and all that.
G: Do you know what our ancestors did in China?
Well, they, the one sister, the one that has kids in Panama, she was a druggist. I guess you call them druggists - the village substitute type of whatchucallit. Here you can call for a doctor because everybody goes there unless there's a serious illness...if there's this kind of problem, this kind of problem, she can give you some Chinese medicine.  She had it right there in the village. After the Communists came in, I guess she went down to Hong Kong.  That's where my brothers and sisters saw her - in Hong Kong when Mainland China was still closed up.  And of course the two Gongs ??? are over here.  And Warren, Sing's father, after he went to school over here, then he went back to China, and because he had a college degree from the United States, he became very high status.  I understand that at least prior to his death he was kind of a right hand man to the mayor of Canton.  So he had a lot of power.  When you get into a high governmental position, you can dictate a lot of things, they're all crooks.  That's what they are, you know, you pay your governmental officials to get anything done.  But he went - I'm trying to think - I used to think it was over in college but it wasn't, I ran across a book, I hope I can find that book again to see where he was.  But anyway, somewhere down the line during World War II, he was sent up to Shanghai for some reason, and I think that's where he was struck down by some illness or something like that and died in a hospital.  And all his wealth vanished with him because he kept all his bankbooks and everything on his person all the time, and when he went to the hospital he had them, and when he died nobody knew anything about them, and the family never was able to recover any of it.
G: That's Bow Cheuk?
Yes
Jana: Where'd you hear that story?
From probably Pop or when I was over there, or something like that.  Even Sing didn't know that. Yeah.  Sing really got passed by in knowledge about the family somehow.
Jana: How come?
Well, I guess he was...you know, he's old enough as far as I can see but didn't bother...didn't think it was important before he came over here.  But I asked him a lot of these things and he didn't know....
J: Which one of the men was that?
Bow Cheuk.
J: Warren?
Uncle Warren, right.  And he's the third youngest boy.
J: So is his son still alive?
Yes.  He's the one I saw in China two years ago.
J: Oh, so they're still in China.
Yeah. And he's always wanted to come over here.  Oh about the last seven or eight years in the Communist regime he got this apparently good position.  I don't know what it is but he runs this office that has something to do with regulating the roads or something like that.  He's got a nice apartment, and they assign apartments based on your status in the hierarchy.  He had a telephone and all that stuff...so I was really surprised when I saw it.
J: You visited him there? 
Yeah.  That's why he's not staying at the old family home.
J: Who is staying at the old family home?
Nobody.
J: It's empty?
Yeah.
G: In Far Yuen?
Yeah.  It's not too far from it.  The city he's in, I think is kind of like a county seat, kind of like the governmental seat of this county.
J: Well, how come no one lives in that home?
Because it's just one of those things.  All the relatives, you don't touch - you know whatchyoucallit.  And he wants to - it's his - the Communists gave it back to him.  'Cause they took it over for quite a long time.  And I understand in the early eighties they finally gave it back to him.  But meanwhile the village...before it used to sit out in the rice fields by itself, away from the village. Both my grandfather and his brother were just a rice field away.  But now - the village has grown all around it.  And Chong was real concerned about getting a picture of the wall that was around it to define his property.  He says, otherwise they're going to build right up to his house, see.  And I guess we sent a picture or else Jimmy took a picture back to see where the wall was.  To prove to the Communist officials that this used to be how much property we have.
J: Did you go into the home?
Oh yeah.
J: What did it look like inside?  Any furniture in there?
No, it's got kind one little kind of worship table.  One of those high stilted things with incense and stuff like that, but practically nothing else in there.
J: Is it like crumbling?
Well, it's brick, so structure-wise it's in good shape, but anything made of wood is kind of rotted, like windowsills.  But he's slowly repairing it and I'm sure that's what he wants to do...when he retires.
J: How many stories is that home?
Four stories.
(all) Wow.
I should have brought those pictures over.  You've probably seen them before.  No?  
J: Who built that home?
Well, it was built in the thirties - my dad sent money back and his younger brother went back after having gone to college and getting a good position, and they - first off started buying property 'cause you don't have rice fields, that's your means of exchange, that's your wealth.  And then they got this home.  My grandfather was kind of the village patriarch.  He was the head schoolmaster at one time and at the time we were back there they all asked him advice as to what they should do, and this and that in the village.  So when he had this house built, god, you know it was so big, especially that time in the thirties, there were no other buildings like that around - you'd like to see old pictures of what you call it.  So it's built with a central section, and then there's two kind of buildings that went out from it and so it looked like an airplane wing, so they called it the fee-gee lo - the airplane building.
(laughter)
I didn't know what they meant by fee-gee lo - I knew that fee-gee meant plane, you know, but I didn't think that's what...yeah...that's what...it was impressive at that time.
J: Who all lived there at that time?
Well, the reason why they built it four stories is that the first story was supposed to be for my grandfather, and then the other three stories were one for each of the sons.  So they all expected us to eventually go back there.  In fact, in about '36, after they built it, I remember they sent a photo of it over, and my dad showed that to us and said that's where we're going to live.
J: When you say your grandfather, do you mean your grandfather or my grandfather?
My grandfather, your great grandfather.
He was going to take us all back, because that's the primary purpose why they came over here, is to get enough money they could eventually go back to China to live.  And so now they had the house built, and they had property for rice and all that....
J: And so you were meant to live in one of the floors...?
The second floor was to be my dad’s, because he was the number one son.  The third was Uncle James, who was the second son, and the fourth was for Uncle Warren, Sing's father.  And in fact his law books are up there.  He was studying law, too.  A whole bunch of law books are up there.
J: Recently?
No, in '47.
J: Oh, a long time ago.
G: So who actually built the house?
It was built by my grandfather, and his brother, Tommy, Lucille and Louise's father, who was the second in age to my grandfather, built right next door to him, within the rice field, because he was number two.  I don't know whether there are any more sons, if one of these [looking at the family tree] are women, or....
G: If it's an "S" it's a boy, a "D" it's a girl.
A "D" is a girl.  O.K., then that's D, and then, oh, daughter and son, huh?  O.K. that's a daughter and...I always thought there was another son.  I don't know about that one.... So that's it, I guess he just had the one.
J: So who did live in the house then, after it was built back then?
O.K.  All right - we were going to go back in the late '30s and then the war came along, so we couldn't go back.  Then during the war years the Japanese occupied it, or at least had their officials....
J: They lived in the house?
Well, they used to call it their administrative headquarters, but the way I understand it, grandfather and grandmother were allowed to live maybe in their room or something like that.  And then when I went back in '47 after the war, of course they had grandfather and grandmother, one of the aunts...Pop's sister, no, Pop's aunt's daughter.  She was kind of a servant.  She did all the work around the house.  And Sing's mother and Sing and his brother were there.  So that's all, and of course they were real happy when my dad came back.  In fact, it was practically an obligation that he come back.  The other two brothers were gone, so it was just empty.  And you don't move other people.  If that's their family's home, it stays that way, no matter how hard it is for other people to live.  This is her home and nobody else's.
J: Well who really owns it now, then.
Well, it was given back to the family, so Sing's brother...it was given to our family.  I guess we have as much rights to it as Sing and his brother.
J: His brother lives in China.
His brother's the one that lives - has his job with the government - whatever it is - in the county seat.
J: Well, how come he doesn't live in that home?  Too far?
Because, well, it's a little ways away from the city where he works, and besides, he's got a nice apartment.  He's got running water and electricity where he's at, whereas this old family home, as nice and big as it is, there's no running water, there's no sewers, there's no electricity.  They ran lines - I could see that, I guess when the Communists had it because I could see some wires that had been cut off, but probably that was the only building.  The rest of the buildings, they still don't have electricity, or running water.  When we were back there, we got all the water out of a well.  I'll have to show you a picture of that some day.
J: Recently, or a long time ago?
In '47.  That well was still there.  All that was still there.
G: When you went back this time?
Yeah.  So funny - 43 years, and when I walked in there everything came so fresh in my mind - gee, here's the well, and there's the kitchen over there....
J: Is it covered now, the well?
Well, there was always kind of a wooden cover that was on top of it.  You could take it off, and there was a long bamboo pole, with a wooden bucket at the end, and you dipped it down there...you can't drink the water right out of there, you have to boil it.  But you know, as the dry season came, the level of the water dropped, dropped, dropped - we were back there for a whole year - it was worse enough that at the end of the dry season it was down to where maybe six inches or so.  We were saying, well what are we going to do?  And then fortunately the rainy season began again.  It's funny you know after a few rains, you just see that old water rise up in that well.
J: The water was murky when you brought it out?  
No, it was pretty clear.  It had a lot of sand, heavy grained sand at the bottom.
J: It percolated through.
Yeah, sand just acted as a filter.  No, really, when you looked at it it's just as clear as the water out of our faucets.  
J: How big around was it?  And it was right outside of the house?
It was right alongside the building. It's all closed, but it's open to the sky.
J: Oh, so it's like a courtyard?
Yeah, it's like a courtyard.  The kitchen's not part of the main house, it's right alongside and kind of connected to the house and another thing in here...I'll have to show you the pictures, that's the best way to describe it.  But you know, it was really a nice place because there's no wood floors because of the humidity and all that stuff, but there's this big, almost 15" square, one inch thick, not cement, it's not plaster, but it's kind of in between - clay, and that's the walking surface all around the house.
R: Paver.
Yeah, it's like a paver.  But it's really nice, and I'll tell you, that front yard was really nice when we were back there in '43 no '47.  They had this pond, and I don't know how fish got into it...
All laugh
But as the water started to drop down, we thought o.k., we're going to lower that pond so it would be deep enough to always have water.  So we bailed out the rest of the water that was in there.  It's funny - you should see it - a wooden bucket and ropes on either end of it, and one person on one end and the other person on the other end, and you'd move forward and drop the bucket in and then you'd pull back, tighten it up and then skim the water out, and that's how we emptied that pond.  But as we got down to the last foot or so, last two feet, we got in the water - it was so murky and muddy you couldn't see anything - and we had these darn old baskets, and we scooped up and we caught a fish!
(laughter)
I said, where in the heck did fish get in there?  I don't know where they got them, unless they bought small fish somewhere and let them swim in there.
J: So did you dig it deeper then?
Yeah, we dug another foot or so.
J: So where'd you get the water to refill it?
We just let it fill up naturally.
J: Was that pond covered over when you came back recently?
Yeah.  All filled up.  I'm sure they covered it over a long time ago.
J: Boy, it sounds like it was a mansion back then.
R: Yeah
It was nice!  Especially when you know, you're driving up there the first time like we were in '47 when I went back there with my dad.  We were driving up these old country road, you know, it was really only about 25 miles to Canton, the big city, so we drove up there and every couple miles there's a village and the whole landscape is all big families, not really families, but usually all the cousins, the relatives, all live in one village.  And they're all low, one story jobs, and they're all white, they're plaster, they're mud but....
J: Whitewashed.
Yeah whitewashed them all, clay tiled roofs.  That's what I expected it was going to be.  You know, they're all adjoining each other, and there's no separation, adjoining walls, like San Francisco.  There's rows and rows, and each family has only maybe a couple rooms with each one you know, and I said, well, that's where we're going to live.  And then we got to the village, and I saw this big building over there and dad said, "that's your grandfather's place."
(laughter)
I couldn't believe it.  I said, hey, that's better than what we had in the United States.  And it was just nice too, but of course because it was occupied all during the war, they were just kind of refixing it back up at that time. So the yard was just planted with a vegetable garden, and the pond, and the outhouse was out there too.  A nice big outhouse, and all that.  So anyway, it was nice considering all the countryside.
G: Oh yeah!  That was all from money that had been sent....
My dad, and then his brother, and his other brother, and all that stuff, so it was all built.
G: What did this generation do to make a living?
Well, that was it.  They had that property.  When the rice was harvested, I don't know where it came from, but from baskets and then they'd thresh it and then it was all piled up in this spare room that was in the house, and whenever they'd need to buy stuff, they'd take a basket of rice to the marketplace.  If they'd need more money, they'd just take more rice.  So really their medium of exchange, that's like I say, their wealth is is...
R: Yeah, pretty well off.
To have land so you can grow rice.
G: Do you know how they were able to get land?

I guess when they had enough resources, they would purchase from somebody that needed the money, or something.

R: It goes back three generations

Yeah.  My guess is that this great grandfahter did come back and probably started buying land.  That's why I say somebody had to...or I could go way back, maybe they were...see nobody really has a lot of land, so usually the only way to accumulate more is to combine...Otherwise, people that had the land, they've got the ideal life becasue they don't do anything.  You know, they go to the marketplace and they play mah jong alld ay long, and the women cook and stuff like that.  They can hire the people to plant the rice fields and all that stuff.  I remember that I went out to help plant some rice to see how it was, and well, gee, you know when it's time for the rice to be planted again, there would be people out there since dawn, and one old wooden plow, and there would be people like that all over the place, so pretty soon in a few days the whole landscape would be all turned over and ready for planting.  And then they'd fill it with water and the same thing for planting - there would be groups out everywhere and you know within a couple of weeks, as far as you can see everything would be planted, because they had so much manpower.  Each family would have their own plow and they'd have enough wealth they don't do the work themselves, they'd get people around to do the work.  So I guess that's how they came over here.  Course, you know, actually coming over here and working is a lot tougher than staying over there, because those people had it relatively easy.  So I was telling Sing's brother, hey, you've got it good over here - you could come to the United States and work  (general laughter).  Especially the menial jobs they have to do when they first came over.  So, in answer to your question, none of them had an occupation after they had...other than my grandfather, who was a schoolmaster.

Jana: That's where the teaching blood comes from (general laughter).

You know, that's where the educated...

Jana: So you say your grandfather was a schoolmaster?

He was kind of a head whatyoucallit, but I'm sure he taught...
He wasn't at the time I was there, he was just in the seventh grade.  They said he was the village schoolmaster at one time.

G:  I guess switching gears a little, you mentioned where everyone was born, so I guess your parents first came to San Francisco?

My dad first came to San Francisco.  

G:  And how long did he live there?

He must have lived there long enough for my mother to come over...she was 27... and he came over in '16.  She probably came over in 1922.  I understood he worked for a family as a houseboy or a cook, basically became a cook for the family.  So that was all in San Francisco, so he must have been there for quite some time.  I guess this was when mom came over and then Ruby was born probably within the year, and then they moved to Merced to work in some relative’s laundry.  And that's where they stayed long enough to have George and Frank.  And then I guess they went to Woodland and started a laundry on his own.

G: Do you know the name of the laundry?

Oh yeah, Tai Lee Laundry. I could never forget that.  The Tai means great and the Lee means strength.  "Great Strength" Laundry. 

Jana: You know that Woodland tour that we went on with you last year - are they having it again this year?

I don't know.  Were you there when we went into that place that had the picture of the old laundry?

Jana: Yes (it was on a walking tour of Woodland)

I wish somebody hung on to that wooden sign we had - a big wooden sign that said, "Tai Lee Laundry" - for a keepsake.

Jana:  But you don't know when....isn't that a yearly thing, that tour?

Yeah.  I don't know if they had one last year.  Lucy and Ruby saw it in the paper and said something about it.  But it's usually in September.

Jana:  I went on it with them, and it's a walking tour of all the historical homes and it goes by their old school - their elementary school or their high school?

High school.

Jana: And then we walked by the street where their laundry was and I guess there's offices in there now.  And the man who has an office in there now...

He owns the property.

Jana: Oh, he's in there?

When we went over there on that tour, well of course we knew where our laundry was, and so we saw this guy in there.  So I went in and I told him who I was, and I said that we used to have a laundry business.  And he says, "I know about that."  Then he pointed to the wall. He had a picture of our laundry, an old picture - I think there'd only been one taken.  It was so decrepit, none of us wanted to take shots of it 

G: Shots of the laundry?

Photographs...it was an old wooden building that we had as a laundry.  Although on the bottom of the thing, it says the picture was taken around 1901, and that it was the Tai Lee laundry.  And the reason why they thought it was a laundry then is that there was a big old bamboo pole with clothes hanging on it.  So I guess they figured that it must have been a Chinese laundry that's hanging their clothes being that there were horses out there and we knew we weren't there when there were horses out there.

G: They probably bought it from the Italian laundry, do you think?

No, it was not a laundry before.  That building originally was built...they say it was used as the first county courthouse.  And then, from some of the signs that we saw on some of the broken windows and stuff like that, it was a dress shop, it was a bakery, it was a bar...we knew it was a bar because there was a great big wooden bar that was in the back room.  I guess it was pushed out of the way and always left there - about twenty feet long - maybe about fifteen feet long.  It was pretty good sized.  But anyway, there was a bar, dress shop bakery, a courthouse, and maybe another one or two things over a period of time, so it must have been built in the 1800s.  Then we probably moved there in about '25, 'cause I was born in '29, and Lucy was born in '27, Jimmy '26, about '24-5, probably moved over there.

Jana: Did you ever ask that guy if you could get the picture?

No, I should have asked him.  I've got the calendars anyway.

G: Calendars?

Yeah, I've got to show you the calendars.  This is where I saw the picture...I was walking down the main street, and I saw this coin shop, just around the corner from where the laundry was.  So I saw the guy in there, and introduced myself, and told him, do you happen to remember the old laundry that was on 1st Street?  And he said that he had only been in town about six or seven years.  But then I described some of the buildings on 1st Street.  So he went out back and got this calendar that had a picture of old Woodland scenes from way back in time. And he flips over to March, and he said "is this it?"  (laughs).  So...so...so...

Jana: Something.

Something. (General laughter)

G: Shocking (General laughter)

Yeah, not shocking.  It was so satisfying to see.  Then...I guess he knew I wanted it, but he says, "well I'm sorry, I can't give it to you, I've already promised this calendar to someone else.  It was still the same year - it had all these historic pictures of Woodland.  So then he told me, "You might want to go to the travel agency that also advertises in here and they might have copies.  So I went down to check with them and they didn't have it, then I went to another place, then I went to a couple antique stores to see if they might have it and no, nobody had it.  So what do I do, I go to this little old Chinese restaurant that was there when we were in Woodland in the twenties, thirties, and forties, and this Chicago Cafe, and I sat down at the counter and I ordered a little lunch, and I just happened to be talking to somebody else, and this Chinese guy comes out and he says he's the son of the former owner.  And I told him who I was and I said, "We used to live in Woodland," in fact we used to wash your aprons (general laughter).  We used to deliver there all the time.  There was the Chicago, and there was this other restaurant only two or three doors away.  Same thing.

G: What's the other one?

Canton Restaurant.  Anyway, I told them about seeing the picture of the old place on the calendar.  He said, "wait a minute," and he goes in the back room and brings out the calendar.  My kids have been using this for scribbling - it's greasy but there's that picture.  So I got a copy of it.  But later on I found out who the printers were, and went over there and got another copy, a good copy.

Jana:  You should have gotten a whole bunch.

They said, this was their only copy, the printer must have had more.

Jana:  You need to go to that guy who has the original picture.

Yeah.

G: So what's the address on First Street?

323 First Street.  I can't forget that.

Jana:  Well, where did Dead Cat Alley come from then?

Well, it was not Dead Cat Alley when we were there. None of the alleys were named at that time.  It was just the alley between First and Second, off Main Street.  But somewhere along the line, they must have found dead cats...I always found stray cats...so people probably started calling it Dead Cat Alley and sure enough, they named it Dead Cat Alley.  (general laughter).

Jana:  Behind the laundry?

Along the side of it.  See we're on First Street, facing it, and the alley is right alongside of our building.  Then kitty-corner was City Hall...here's this old decrepit building, and then there's City Hall, the fire station, and the rest of...heck, we used to have the mayor come over with laundry, the district attorney, the chief of police, you know all a bunch of dirty lawyers, boy, they could have got a better laundry but not cheaper (general laughter), but why should they, you know everybody's working so they all came in witth their laundry.

G: So when did you all move to Sacramento?

In '47.  Right after the war, in '46, your dad, Frank, and Uncle Jimmy all came out of the service, you know they released them all in '46.  And so, everybody had the G.I. bill to go to school, so they all signed up for school, and I had just graduated from high school in June of '46, so somebody at Woodland High School put my name in for a scholarship at Cal.  I didn't even know where Cal was.  You know, I'd heard of it, but I didn't know that much about it and all that.  I knew it was way off in Berkeley.  And I got this scholarship, so you know I guess I'll go out to Cal.  And then Frank, he went out too, George, your dad, and Jimmy started at Sac JC as they called it, Sacramento Junior College, and so they spent their first two years there, then they transfered out to Cal.  Frank and I spent all four years at Cal.  So we had four guys going to Cal at one time.  Then I lost a year 'cause I went to China, so I graduated a year later than the rest of them, but your dad, when he transfered, he had to pick up some extra credits, so he stayed another year, so he and I graduated the same year, in '51.  Frank and Jimmy had graduated the year before.

Jana:  Who actually went there first, did you all start at the same year?

Frank and myself started the same year.

Jana: But he didn't get a scholarship, only you did?

No, he had the G.I. Bill.  

Jana:  Oh, so his way was paid through then.

George, Frank, and Jimmy all had the G.I. Bill because they were in the military service.  So they had four years of...

Jana:  And you got a four year scholarship?  

Just a year, my first year.

Jana: And then how'd you pay for it afterwards?
  
Worked in a...worked as a houseboy.  Did all the laundry too (general laughter).  Your dad...here's how it happened.  First of all, I got this place to say with a kindergarten teacher, no a music teacher that we had in grade school.  She liked my sister Ruby so much, when she had Ruby,  that she said, if you ever go to college, then whatchucallit. and I guess she knew she was going off to Berkeley, and she says, you let me know and you can stay with us, their family, and you know, when you go to school.  Of course, she [Ruby] didn't go to college, but then I come along, and I said, "gee, you remember that teacher who said you could stay with her if you went to college?”  And she said, yeah, so she wrote her.  I guess she had kept up correspondence with her, she wrote her and said, "I've got this brother and he needs to find a place to stay."  And so she just said, "well send him out." And sure enough, they took me in, but they only stayed about three months.  The husband was a professor at Cal, but he got a professorship at the University of Washington.  I guess it just came through after the semester, so no use moving up without the family again.  So the woman says, don't worry about it, I'll find you a place to stay.  So, because she found me this other couple, the Kimballs, that I stayed with, and was I glad, because the Kimballs turned out to be real good...the other one had this little two or three year old, boy, and he was a hellion (general laughter), always down in my room, "Quit bothering me." Not that he was naughty, it was just he was bugging me all the time.  So I was really kind of happy that...so I just moved to this other family that had just this one girl.  She was around five years old, she hadn't started school yet but she was real nice.  The whole family was real nice.  I had this nice room down by myself down in the basement, you know, away from everything. And all I had to do was wash dishes there, while I had all kinds of things to do at the first place.  In fact, after staying there [the second place] for awhile, I said, I'm not earning my keep, so pretty soon I started cleaning the house, and then pretty soon I started doing the garden work.

Jana:  Did you ask for more work?

I just felt so guilty.

Jana:  You ate there, too, all your meals.

Yeah, I ate there.  Either I took lunch or ate  lunch down at the campus.  But I always ate breakfast and dinner there.  And then when I was gone for the year in China, I thought that I was going to get back in the summer before school started and miss just one semester, but I told them to find somebody else, but they said, "oh no, we're going to keep this place for you." (general laughter).  They were a real nice couple.

Jana: What did they do for a living?

The father was in advertising.

Jana:  Are they still alive?

No.

Grant: These are the Kimballs?

The Kimballs.

Grant: Do you know where that was?

100 Hillcrest Road.  And your dad paid them...Frank, he ?? the people I stayed with on Himmel (?) Place, across the street, just down a few blocks, no a few houses.  So he stayed, but you know he was getting the G.I. Bill, so he figured he would get a room somewhere or something like that.  So the first two years we were by ourselves and then your dad and Uncle Jimmy came out at the beginning of the year and Jim found a place with this doctor family. And I can't remember why, I think he stayed those two years there, your dad took over from him after that, but after either one semester or a year, he said, "Man, I can't hack it" with that doctor family and every dinner they had to set up a real formal dinner, you know, all kinds of dinnerware, at least four of five glasses (general laughter)...I used to go over there, you know, besides, I had a dishwasher put in [at the Kimballs]- really.  So I came back and he had to wash dishes (general laughter).  I just rinsed and put them in the watchucallit.  So I'd get my work done and then go and see a game or something like that and I'd go over to your dad's to go get him because he had the car.  And he'd have piles...and I'd have to help him (gl), washing away.  Either a semester or a year, he moved out of there. I guess it was just a semester because he moved in with Richard and Mary Pon.

Grant: Oh really?

Yeah. Because he stayed with them.

(new tape, uncertain what came before this)

Jana:  Oh, she was seventeen, huh,  when you met.  

Oh, in our case, your dad...

Grant: He was that young, when they first met?

Your dad...

Grant: They didn't get married until much later.

Jana: Yeah, but I think she was seventeen when they met.

Your dad met your Uncle Bill when they were both working at McClellan Air Force (Base), or McClellan Field at the time, just prior to the war.  You know, they were both electricians in the army, airplanes and all that stuff.   And that's why they both ended up ??? and your Uncle Bill ended up in the Air Force?

Grant: ???

Of course he did maybe half of ???  .  So anyway, that's how they got started, and they knew each other then.  And so you know, I guess they kept up their friendship and I'm sure that's how he (your dad) met your mom, through knowing Uncle Bill.  They got married in ...

Jana:  Uncle Bill said, well I have a sister....(general laughter)

the fifties... ???? Louise, well I think the first time they met it was Eeege (??) or something like that.

Jana:  You ???????? did ?

I was  ???????? (more of his?) age.  And I guess he saw Esther....

Jana: He had an eye out for your mom. 

I met him (Uncle Bill?) in '48.  So your dad had to know, well of course he knew Bill as part of the war...  they met somewhere while in the service in India they came across each other's paths.

Grant: Bill Owyang?

Either John or Bill.  But anyway your dad knew the Owyangs because when I got back from China, he picked us up in San Francisco at the ship and this was when your aunts and uncles lived on West Street.  3007 West Street.  Because I remember walking in, and I guess I had this real long hair from China and all that stuff, I looked like a Chinaman (gl).  And I came in, I don't know why, I was so loud mouth, whatever, I didn't impress...you'll have to ask your mom.  They must have said, god, check this guy....(gl).  You'll have to ask them about all that.

Grant:  When my dad left that (doctor) family, where did he go next?  Did he rent a room, or....

Let's see.  I think he might have ended up renting from ??????  He was out for three years and I know at least one semester or a full year he was at that doctor's house then for one year he was at Richard's.  

Grant: Oh yeah, Richard....

They (the Pons) started having more kids I guess (general laughter) and somewhere along the line he moved to...or maybe the last semester ???????  I'm not quite sure now, maybe he stayed there until he graduated.  

Grant:  Was the house located in Oakland or Berkeley?

Oakland.

Grant:  Do you know how he got interested in architecture?

I have no idea how he got into architecture.  I don't know whether he liked it or not.  I know he...when I used to go through school, especially in high school, every time I'd go for a new semester or a new teacher, and they'd always ask me, "are you going to be like your sister Ruby  or your brother George?" (general laughter). I didn't know what they were asking about.

Grant:  I’m wondering myself.  (general laughter)

Your dad was kind of very...

Jana: He was probably like a class cutup or something.

Yeah, he could cut up, and he was not shy or anything. (general laughter)  I guess he gave the teachers a bad time.  ????????????

Jana:  She what?

Most of the guys don't type and ????? and all that stuff.

Jana: When they make those kind of comparisons, you know they could be...

They said this about five or six times so I figured there must be something to it...the kids that they left such a lasting impression.

Grant:  So he was a class cutup but he must have studied okay.

Yeah, he had, you know those kind of grades.  They were all pretty smart - it depends on how they applied themselves (general laughter).

Grant: Were there very many other Chinese kids in Woodland?

No,  there was one family, there were two other families that ran the grocery store and they had kids, one about my age and my brother Jimmy's age, and this other family - the Lees, Lawrence Lee is a dentist and Ronald Lee is a doctor.  Those were the only two other families.  Some others worked in the restaurants but they were all single or married and their wives were still in China.  But later on this Helen Low's family, son Harry....

Jana:  I don't know them either.

Helen passed away - she was in my class in high school then moved over before I got through high school.

Jana:  So how did they treat you back then...as a novelty?

No, back then there was a lot of discrimination, but we got along with the kids, but you know...you don't move or live in certain areas and all that.  Although the Lees owned the grocery store and they lived in a pretty nice place so I guess there wasn't pretty ??? gap, you know, trying to rent property was tough.  Well, when Ruby, you know when they wanted to buy a house in South Land Park Drive, the neighbors all got petitions to keep them out.

Jana:  Oh really?

Yeah, next store was Jewish and they were probably the strongest promoters of trying to keep them out.

Jana:  Oh really?

Yeah, the guy was an attorney and all that stuff. ????????? not real good friends and ?????????????

Jana:  Well how were they able to buy there then, if they circulated petitions...?

Well, you know they don't want you there....

Jana:  I'm surprised that they wanted to live there after all that.

You have to live your life some way, assert your rights.  Well, when your mom and me were looking for property, I would call some place and I would always tell them I was Chinese before I went over there because I knew I'd get snubbed or something like that.

Jana:  What would they say to you?

Well, they wouldn't say anything, but they'd just tell you the place...

Jana: No vacancies.

Yeah, we just rented the place (gl).  That's what happened.

Grant: So did anyone go out on dates or anything, was that allowed?

During high school?

Grant: Yeah.

No, not with low fan kids, no.

Jana:  Well, there was no one to date then - you couldn't...then you must not have ever dated then.

Grant:  College there were more I guess.

Jana:  Well, when you hit college, you must have gone wild (gl)!

Parties...oh man (general laughter)!

Well, in Woodland there was just that Helen Low (general laughter). She had a cute face but she wasn't my type (general laughter).

Jana:  Well, when there was only one Asian girl!

Rosalyn:  What was the dating scene like in college?

Grant:  Oh, what was the dating scene like in college?

The dating season?

Grant: The dating scene like in college...and for my dad?

Well, he started going out with your mother, kind of steady, when he got out to Cal.

Grant:  Really?

Jana:  See, I told you, she was really young when they...

Yeah, he was....

Grant: They didn't get married for a long time?

Yeah, he didn't get married until about fifty....

Jana:  When she was like twenty-four or twenty-five or something like that?

'Cause he had started working for Henry Hill and lived over in San Francisco for at least a couple years before they got married.  In those days, you had to be sure you had a decent job....

Grant: Yeah.

Jana:  You know what's really weird is that one of my friends that I met when I was in junior high - when I met her father - this was how many years ago - seventeen years ago?  You know, how they always ask what your last name is?  They're Japanese, so I didn't think that they would know necessarily - that ususally it's Chinese that always want to know.  But anyway, he said that he had gone to school with your dad, 'cause he said you must be part of the Din family.

Who's that?

Jana: Elsie (?) Kinoshita's dad Ted.  So he said that he went to the architecture school...

Grant:  Same time?

Jana:  Yeah, so I should ask him some more about that.

Your Uncle John  (Owyang)...of course in '46 you had a big age span because you had all the returning G.I.s, guys that had been out of school for five or six years, a lot of them were there on the G.I. Bill, going back to school, so you had a big age span in class.  So that's why you can't tell so much about age.  Your Uncle John and all those guys - Ernest Lee...

Grant:  All those Chinese architects.

...and Wah Leong.

Jana:  Is that Ernie?

Grant: Ernie Lee, yeah.

Ernie, Wah Leong, they all went to the School of Arrchitecture, you know all at the same time.

Grant:  I guess it was a field that was more open to Asians than other....

Well, not necessarily. ???????????   all got into that.  But it was at that time, yeah, it was a very good profession because it was really starting up from scratch after the war.

Jana:  Yeah, I guess so. More opportunities.

More opportunities.

Grant:  Oh.  How'd my dad lose his eye?  I heard he poked it out (general laughter).

The story behind it is that he and Frank would fool around and fight and I think your dad was chasing him with a needle.

Collective: Oh God!

A great big Chinese sewing needle that we used in the laundry.  About that long, you know.  I guess he had it in his hand, and I guess he tripped and fell.

Grant: Aiiiyahhhhh!

I understood they probably could have saved it, but at that time nobody had enough sense to take him to the doctor.

Jana:  Oh, he didn't even go to the doctor?!

No...

Jana:  Oh God!

You know, that's how he lost it.  

Jana:  How old was he?

Probably pretty young

Grant:  Like teenager?

Oh no, it was over in Woodland, no might have been in Merced where it happened so it could have been when he they were kids.  See, we were always in the laundry.

Jana:  So then they put a glass eye in there?

I don't know when he got the glass eye.

Jana:  He did have a glass eye though, didn't he?

Yeah.  I don't think he got that until his later years, and gone through the service.  He wasn't supposed to go to [the army?]  - first off they said well, we won't draft you, awaiting the whatchucall it.  Pretty soon things got tough so they drafted him, but they says, okay restriction - you're not to be put in any combat because you have one eye and there's a chance you'll lose sight in that eye and will go blind.  But then that went by the boards and he ended up in Okinawa...of course he was behind the lines so to speak because he was in the air corps, taking care of planes.

Jana:  How could he even really see?

Well, you can just get by with just one eye.

Jana:  No but I mean if you're in combat.

Well he wasn't really in combat.  He didn't actually end up in combat.  He was in a combat zone.

Jana:  Oh.

He did all the wiring in airplanes.  So it's pretty good, the last two years he got to be a technical sergeant.  Probably would have got higher, if it wasn't for that he probably got busted a couple times (general laughter).

Grant: For what?

For coming home late on pass, or doing something...

Grant: Party animal.  

Jana:  Yeah, he sure sounds like it, huh?  That's probably what your mom was attracted to (gl).

Roz:  Wild man.

Well, if you ever met any of his friends they'd all say, "Oh yeah, Gunga" you know...a lot of fun with him.

Grant:  Yeah, I meet people I never met and they'd say, "Oh your dad, he was a lot of fun (gl)."

Roz: Stop there, right.

Jana:  In fact, I think that's what my friend's dad said about him too, that's what he kind of remembered about him - just being kind of a fun-loving guy.

Grant:  So he still ended up being a technical sergeant even though he probably got busted.

Yeah, he came out as a tech sergeant.  He was the highest ranking of the three.  Let's see, of course he went in first.  He went in shortly after...probably right out of high school graduation, no he worked at the county clerk for at least a year maybe two then the war started.  Let's see...I graduated in '46, Lucy and Jimmy in '45.  Frank must have graduated in '43.  George probably graduated in '40 or '41, 'cause he started, you know, and I don't think the got drafted probably until '43.  And then Frank got put in then Jimmy got drafted somewhere along the line after that.  Jimmy got drafted before he got out of high school.

Grant: Really?

Well, he was a year older than most of his classmates because they held him back so he could go to school with Lucy.  So he was eighteen in his junior year, then they talked to him and he graduated right away.

Grant: So he came back and finished school and then he...

No.  Because his grades were so good, they just gave him credit for his fourth year.

Grant:  The family moved to Sacramento in '47?

Okay.  Well, we all started in '46, before his grades...of course three were in the service and weren't around but obviously since I was going to college, and the rest were going to college, my dad says, "Well we don't have enough help around the laundry now, so we might as well close up.  So we did. Then I guess you know he probably felt he worked hard enough during those...you know, he was working about sixteen to eighteen hours every day, every day of the week, during all the war years.  So anyway, I guess my going off to school was really critical because that was one sixth of the work that could be done by anybody else, and John was still too young.  How come John didn't...(gl).  He was starting high school then.  But anyway, he decided to close up.

Jana:  That's when they bought the house on "W" Street?

Yeah, and Jimmy and...they bought it a few months afterwards.

Jana:  How could they afford it?

All during the war years, Dad was putting money in my bank account and my sister's bank account, and when it was time to buy a house, they just took the money out of our accounts.

Jana:  Why even bother to put the money in your account (gl)?

I thought that was mine (gl).

Grant:  Did you have money that...the small amount of money that you earned in the service - did you send that back?  

I didn't go in the service until after I got out of college so ???????...they didn't take it all out.  But it was eight or nine thousand for the house and they had that much saved up in various accounts.  They just cashed it all out, and took that all cash and paid it for the house.  Right out.

All:  Oh wowwww.

Just laid their eight or nine thousand bucks out (gl).  We didn't know enough about...

Roz: Write a check!

I know he had a checking account because he would write checks to pay for Uncle Warren's schooling in the thirties, for his whatchucall it.  But anyway all I know is that he took it out, cashed it all out and walked into the woman's house and paid cash for it.

Jana:  The lady who owned it? 

Yeah.

Jana:  You were there?

No, but that's what they told me.  We bought the house in probably October or November of the year that we went off to school.

Jana:  Do you remember how old the house was back then?

It must have been about thirty years old back then.

Grant:  So did they start a new business in Sacramento or...?

No.

Grant:  They just retired?

Just retired and then after the first year I was at Cal, my dad went back to China. And then the reason why I went, is that they thought somebody should go with him, at least one of us should go with him.  Nobody wanted to, they boys had all been in the service.  Really, it was up to the boys.  And of course he wanted your dad as the number one son to go, and he said, "No, I'm not going," because he had been in the service and lost two or three years already, and got all anxious to finish school.  So I was tired of school by then, so I said, "Oh, okay, I'll go (laughs).

Grant:  So you both went for a year and then your dad came back. 

The only reason why I stayed a year, really, because I was going to go for only a few months, but then my dad had his passport pickpocketed in Hong Kong in the first month we were there, and it took us seven or eight months to get that thing back.

Grant:  He actually got the passport back, or...

Going back through the consulate.  And the problem he had is that he had no identifying information that he was Ow Luen, not Hew Din.  He had driver's license but it was under Hew Din.  So I wasn't even his son, and I couldn't even go (gl) I couldn't go anywhere, so they said you have to sit out in the hallway, you know.  I could talk to the English speaking people.  He had to work with the Chinese people.

Jana:  Pay them off?

And that's what they wanted.  He didn't know that.  They kept saying, well, this happened, or that happened.  They were trying to get him to say, gee, maybe some whatchucallit.  But he never caught on to it.  So I guess it just dragged out.  He finally got in and got to talk to an American employee.  He said, well, let me check the file.  He read the file, and saw that it had been approved several months before. 

Roz:  They wanted their bribe.

So that guy knew what was happening.  The police hadn't owned up to it.  So anyway, the Communists were coming down to...

Jana:  It must have been scary.

...Shanghai at that time.  Everybody started to really sweat it.  All the stateside Chinese that had gone over.  Right after the war these boatloads went back to get a wife.  You know, all the Chinese born Chinese that came over, of course there was no opportunity to find a wife over here, so they were in the service and they got citizenship through that so they write to their wives and they were just pouring over there.  And of course people like my dad and others that didn't have a chance to go to China after all these years.  So everybody was going back.  So suddenly everybody was trying to get back to the United States and the main mode of transportation was ship.  Airplanes were still propellor airplanes and to be hopping across cost a fortune.  So Pop went to get his passport out and he'd keep signing up for a ship too, you know and then, I'd come along and they'd say we have passage for two and then I'd have to say no, we can't go yet...three times.  The ships were only about every two months.

Grant: Oh, no.

So I said, "We're not going to make it back from the Communists.”

Jana: Gosh.  We wouldn't have been born (gl).

So he got his passport back, and coincidentally it was only a short period of time.  So we got ship passes and boy was I glad to get on board.  When that ship pulled out of the Bay of Hong Kong, I was never so happy.  I never thought I'd see the United States again.  That was a twenty two day ship sailing - see nothing but water.

Jana:  God, I would have been seasick.

So anyway, so we bought the house anyway in '47 because I think there wasn't anything to hold my pop there [in Woodland] and there were more Chinese over there in Sacramento.  The two boys were going to school in Sacramento, so that's why they bought the house in Sacramento.

Jana:  He gave up the idea of having the boys settle back in China?

Oh, he gave that up back in the thirties.  See, I mean he was all ready to ship things back and the house was built, already finished in the mid thirties.  

Grant:  That's when the war broke out.

Yeah, and in about '36 I  remember because I was just six or seven years old and all I knew is that I don't want to go to China.  I didn't even know where China was, but I just didn't want to go!  Even though they had this picture of this nice big building, and all that stuff.  So I was just worried about it (gl) what was going to happen, (???????), and gee, we're still here.  Of course if I had been older, I would have realized it was because they couldn't come back because of the war.  So until after the war, that was the first time that they they had the chance to go back.  By that time of course, the boys and everybody were their own age, and there was no way you'd get any of us to go back.  And my mother never wanted to go back to stay at this time.  We left...my mother never went back at the time.  She stayed over here.  Of course, we had two sisters who were working and all that.  And then my grandparents were getting pretty old.  My dad didn't have any desire I guess.  Of course most of his life was over here since he was only about sixteen when he came over.

Grant:  So Aunt Ruby and Lucy were never really given the chance to go to college because they were girls?

Wasn't thought of.  I mean girls just didn't go at that time.

Grant:  So they got jobs after high school?

Well, after they moved to Sacramento they started working for the state.  They could have gone.  They could have gone to any college or public university, in fact they were dirt cheap.  You know, it only cost us $37.50 per semester for our incidental fee, as they called it, when we first started.  When it finally got up to 75 dollars per semester we said God!

Jana:  That was your tuition?

Called incidental fee.  So there was only your own housing and food and books.  A public university like Cal was practically taken care of by the taxpayers.  But then of course all the G.I.s were there and they got their monthly stipend for living expenses and their books and things like that.  Any more questions?

Grant:  I guess just one about when your dad passed away in 1960, I guess, and then I guess my dad passed away shortly after.

Three weeks later.

Grant:  Uncle John told me that he [my dad] went on this drinking binge and his pancreas gave out?

His liver, or something.  You were just born [actually, Carla] so we didn't...he was on a job for Henry Hill, the architect that he worked for in Marin County, and I guess he was stricken and put in a hospital in Marin County somewhere and so we all went out and it sounded pretty serious.  She [Jana] was just born and I'd just gotten back from the hospital and so I stayed with Esther and her.  So I understand that he developed pneumonia or something like that and died.

Jana:  After the pancreas?

Well, it was cirrhosis (sp?) of the liver that he had, so you know...

Jana:  But did he know he had that?

Well, we all had an idea that he had a drinking problem, over a period of time, and we couldn't get him to go to see a doctor about it, so I guess it just got worse.  So he just got stricken one time.

Grant:  But it just happened to be after your dad passed away.

Yeah, it might have been all related.  It might have caused a lot of stress.  My dad passed away, I remember in October, you [Jana] were born in November, and between this death you were born and then Grant's dad died after you were born.  You'd just got back from the hospital.  And you know the funniest thing about that -  I was up late because Esther had to get up every couple of hours at night for her [Jana], and there was a movie on the t.v., Gunga Din, and I was watching that darned movie and they called your dad "Gunga" and once that movie came out they slapped that name on him, you know that's when the call came through that he had passed away.

[Andrea arrives]
Andrea:  Here's the family tree, huh?

Grant: A lot happened to the family, geez.

Andrea:  What?

Jana:  When his dad died.  

Andrea:  Oh.

Grant:  When our grandfather died, then Jana was born, then my dad died.

Jana:  That was an awful month, huh?

Yeah, 'cause I was off work for about six weeks, and then took off for dad's whatchucall it, then went back for a few days, and then she was born, so I had to come home there, and then your dad got sick.  I remember having to go to the funeral home, your dad and myself to make arrangements for my dad, then three weeks later I came back and had to talk to him again.  The guy couldn't believe it.  Bad ????

Grant:  Yeah.

Jana:  How could you even think about me being born (general laughter).

Grant:  Good thing you were born, though!

Carla was no more than three or four months old.

Grant:  Thanks.

Yeah.  I've got some pictures of your dad when he was in the service and stuff like that.  I'll see if I can dig them out.

Grant:  That would be great.  I know Carla would love to see them too.